more clear means of navigation not relying on visual sight.

47 posts / 0 new
Last post
betaking12
more clear means of navigation not relying on visual sight.

We need to have some means of navigation that can be done without reliance on visual sight.

also devices that can tell us our vector.

Drago55577 Drago55577's picture

X, Y, Z naviagation? With the center of the solar system/a point you set as 0, 0, 0?

In space no one can hear you burn

betaking12

possibly, I would be more concerned about like where solid objects are.

basically I want to be able to at least have a good Idea on how to build ships...

insolent insolent's picture

@betaking12: Good point. If you're designing a combat ship, you probably won't want a big ol' window that lets lasers in and shatters under impacts. So yeah, you'll need another way to navigate.

Right now, navigation is slated to be done through a navigation terminal. What that experience will actually be like is another question. Perhaps it can interface with the various sensors you have installed on your ship (optical cameras, radar, thermal, etc.) to give you a view of your surroundings, in much the same way weapons terminals are expected to do. If you lost those sensors, you'd be flying blind though... but that's how it would be in reality and in hard science fiction, so I think that's how it should be. Better build in an observation deck with retractable armor, so you can still see when your sensors are shot out!

Perhaps the navigation terminal could also provide the user with a scrollable, zoomable realtime map of the solar system, filling it in with major features like planets and suns, and then adding smaller objects the ship's sensors detect like ships and stations. Perhaps players could use the navigation terminal to set waypoints using that map.

It may be unrealistic, but I'd also like to be able to see a third person view of my ship. Maybe we could have camera probes for that purpose, with the navigation terminal able to display the view captured by the probe's camera.

betaking12

what about having just a "monitor".... something that can hook up to like a "sensor" computer and/or possibly various cameras. this monitor would have a sort of dial you can use to switch the input its recieving, so you can like have it display radar/sensor data, or have it display information from like a camera....

insolent insolent's picture

@betaking12: Ah, you're thinking of a "sensor terminal." Those are in the game right now but don't do anything yet. They'll be used to view what your sensors and cameras see. In my last post I was just speculating that the navigation terminal might also similarly use the sensors and/or a map of the solar system, so you can see where you're flying.

A lot of different terminals need to integrate with the sensors, it seems. Weapon terminals need them too (though they may show the view captured by a camera on the weapon itself - that's undecided).

dezuman

I heard the solar systems would be scaled down a fair bit, but will it be enough to actually make eye ball mark 1 a viable sensor?

insolent insolent's picture

@dezuman: True, they'll be scaled down - but not so far, I expect, down that you could eyeball a ship from a planet away. Sensors will be required for things like that.

But yeah, for simple navigation purposes like travelling between planets and asteroid belts, I expect that the eyeball will be an adequate sensor to see your destination and navigate accordingly.

Patzlinger Patzlinger's picture

This discussion illustrates one of the biggest "problems" in general the later game will probably have...
It sounds like a fulltime job just to navigate a vessel, like in reality... even if there are clones or droids or whatever to help you handling your ship it's nearly impossible to do so much things at once... fly maneuvers, designate targets, handling the damage control, maintaining resources like energy between different systems, use special abillitys and so on... The one of you who played Star Trek Bridge Commander with the Kobayashi Maru Mod might understand what I mean... and the possibilities in this game are still limited... scrumbleship will be more complex than this... and Bridge Commander is a full time job in a real battle - a cool full time job ;D

Maybe it would be better to handle one ship with more than 1 Player at once... i think this will be possible anyway... i thought much about a way to give one player the abillity to handle so much work alone but i don't see a chance to do this AND make a battle fast and excting...

although you might think this problem is mainly a prob for rly big ships with many systems and possibilities - it isn't... a large battleship can stand some seconds of fire during the player assigning some targets for the "clone-gunners" at the tactical station and don't look at the navigation... a small ship that can't stand more than 2-3 hits must be piloted all the time tho evade enemy fire... for example.

The imagination of a crew of players that handle a ship together, sitting in teamspeak and acting like real bridgeofficers... i like it ;D

We got Signatures! :D

Revanchist Revanchist's picture

I imagine the multiple Scrumblers per team will be invaluable in most fights.

Patzlinger Patzlinger's picture

the question is wheter you preffer 3 Ships with just 1 "real" Crewman and slow reaction but 3x more firepower or 1 Ship with 3 Crewman and faster reaction times ;D

We got Signatures! :D

Revanchist Revanchist's picture

I'm of the opinion that having 3 players on one ship will be more useful in most situations. I understand however, the arguement that 3 mid/small ships /can/ have advantages.

As a side note: How might fuel factor into those situations?

betaking12

I think another major problem will be identifying what a ship is, and what a piece of rubble is.

Commander Keen

That is exactly how stealth will work.

Patzlinger Patzlinger's picture

That sounds like Ships have to look like a piece of crap to get stealth abilitys ? thats weird :D radar absorbing materials and visual inconspicuousness ( for example no external lights ) will be factors for stealth abilitys as far as i know ( there was a thread about it a while ago )

We got Signatures! :D

insolent insolent's picture

@Patzlinger: I don't think Commander Keen meant you'd need to make your ship visually look like a piece of debris; he's saying that ships and pieces of debris or metallic asteroids will give off similar sensor signatures.

Space, even the condensed space that will likely be ScrumbleShip's solar systems, is really big. Most ships you won't be able to visually see unless they're so close that stealth would be a moot point anyway. So you'll rely on sensors to determine what ships and other objects are in (relatively) nearby space.

Now, I haven't seen Dirkson weigh in much on those stealth discussions, and to my knowledge he's not into handwavium-based stealth systems. Since the game has a heat simulation engine, ships will give off heat, and we'll probably have ways to detect it. We'll also have radar dishes. Therefore, any ship you want to stealth will need both a way of hiding its heat from its enemies (which we've already determined would need to be done by sequestering it behind near-perfect insulation and later releasing it, or by channeling it - including any maneuvering thrusters or drives - directly away from the enemy), AND a way to absorb/scatter radar. It should also probably be visually dark or somehow unobtrusive. Needing to hide one's heat, scatter radar, and be visually unobtrusive makes stealth very difficult, though perhaps not impossible.

However, now that I think of it, maybe Commander Keen DID mean that stealth could be achieved by making your ship look like rubble! Think about it - if your ship is a hollowed out asteroid (or a regular ship clad in rough rocky material) it will automatically look unobtrusive, and return the radar signature of a small asteroid - no need for fancy radar-scattering material. You'd only need to worry about sequestering or channelling your heat, but rock is a pretty good insulator, and you could hide all manner of better insulators within the rock.

So yeah, making your ship look like a piece of crap (or rock) might actually be one of the best ways to stealth it. :D Of course, if people get wise to the fact that's what you're doing, they'll treat any oddly-placed small asteroids as a potential threat. Thus, more reliable stealth might still come in the form of an expensive, perfectly-designed stealth ship.

Oebele

insolent: if there's a few people using that tactic, it's not enough to have people shooting every asteroid they encounter, for there will be way more real asteroid than hollow ones ;-)

insolent insolent's picture

Oebele: True, true. But bear in mind most asteroids in a system will be confined to the asteroid belt (the orbit where most of the asteroids end up) rather than scattered throughout the system. Thus, the asteroid stealth ship would probably work really well in the asteroid belt, but might look a little out of place elsewhere - especially if the asteroid is moving in a strange direction. That said, I could be wrong - perhaps free asteroids could be common enough in the game that people wouldn't think nothing of a small loose asteroid wandering far from the belt. I guess we'll see!

Oebele

yeah that's true.

thatrussiangamer thatrussiangamer's picture

When moving blocks come you can have the engine fold out of the asteroid

insolent insolent's picture

@thatrussiangamer: Good point! Clever idea - you could even hide them behind a hatch made out of rock.

Revanchist Revanchist's picture

I find it easy to imagine high-grade missiles disguised as asteroids now. They go up to mine it, you give it a signal (or ScrumbleScript it), and...

Oebele

hah, I first read "missiles _disgusted_ as asteroids"

Piranninja

Back to track, it would be fun for players to leave some kinds of buoys around. One can then navigate basing on distance to that bacons

betaking12

but that would require that you be able to somewhat precisely know your velocity, so you can stop, and so the buoy would stop.

insolent insolent's picture

Nav buoys might be a good idea! And betaking, I wouldn't worry - we'll be able to tell how fast we're going, and nav buoys could always be stationary (relative to the local star), so you can easily know your velocity relative to it.

Oebele

That brings up a good point... are orbits going to be simulated, or are planets going to have a fixed position as in a lot of science fiction?

insolent insolent's picture

That's a good question. I know Dirkson has joked about entering an asteroid field at the wrong trajectory relative to the belt's trajectory and being obliterated in the process, which would imply orbit simulation - but he may have been talking more in real-life terms.

We'll have to see. Personally in a game as realistic as ScrumbleShip, I'd like to see simulated orbits.

Oebele

moving asteroids != moving planets.

I expect asteroid to be in motion, but not sure about planets. Hope so though.

Revanchist Revanchist's picture

Until Dirkson creates planets that you can use, he's said they'll be instant-kill zones. Moving instant kill zones.

Oebele

He said they would be moving? If so, the question is answered! Thanks.

Revanchist Revanchist's picture

I've heard nothing of them moving. Only that (until he implements the ability to land) they will be instanty fatal. To the best of y knowledge, he's planning on having all astral bodies be moving.

http://dynamic.scrumbleship.com/blog/space-big

The first paragraph seems to imply that they /will/ move, however.

Piranninja

So any buoys would be placed on orbits, seems legit :P

betaking12

for some reason I think that systems to tell your vector should be something that could be handwaved... if it becomes an issue.

Revanchist Revanchist's picture

Going back to the above, Navigational terminals could have an xyz coordinate relative to the systems space station (or sun).

Piranninja

Don't you get that navigation would be hard even having x,y,z becouse everything in space is in motion ? :) Planet Alpha that was nearby planet Beta 24h later are 100000 km away or something :) Nav buoys orbiting planets would mark those planets for other players (so first player to set up buoy would have rights to name it ;) ) So you navigate from buoy to buoy :P That would force exploration, be fun and - most important - realistic enuff :)

Revanchist Revanchist's picture

That makes more sense, honestly. I hadn't thought of players constructing the markers.

Patzlinger Patzlinger's picture

Atm ScrumbleShip is placed in a 3D Enviroment which means that the sun as only one static point in space is not enough to get(!) the own coordinates... not even if it would be a 2D game :D you don't know exactly on which "side" of the sun you are when everything else is moving around :P If we say the sun is 0,0,0 point in the coordinate system we still don't know which axis is which direction cause we don't have the coordinates of at least one other static object in space - it must be given to us by dirkson or everyone has to find/define his own way of navigating through space ;D
I think the best way would be if dirkson just gives us the "game editor" coordinates on the navigation terminal. To create an own navigation system depending on two position and the relative distance to that two points in space would be hard - maybe impossible to maintain in a propper time without scrumblescript ;D

We got Signatures! :D

Oebele

You could just define north to be on an axis, and the other perpendicular. (Trolololololol)

Piranninja

You still forget one major issue - everything is moving so "planet" won't be on specific X Y Z coordinates 24/7...

guestaccess guestaccess's picture

hmmm what if navigation buoys can help map an area (in the event of multiple) and also be used to track ships hit with trackers (bounty hunting tracking numbers?) like a special tile like mine or something that allows the ship to be tracked by various buoys or perhaps very strong sensors

Feralcus Feralcus's picture

Navigation in system is simple, have several buoys orbiting at the edge of the system, and then two more arrays far outside the system directly above and below the poles of the sytems main star using the magnetic fields to orient,(Multi star systems will be require some thought if they exist) and just adapt some standard gps software. The need for accurate positioning in the void inbetween star systems will be surpringly little, you just need the distance between you and your destination system. Just put a "There be dragons here" label where applicable.

Third person view: Using drones to inspect the hull will be incredibly useful but think of it this way; We're limited to 1x1 blocks and the things would need engines and fuel, power generation, complex visual equipment, lights, possibly even the abillity to affect light repair jobs which means the ability to carry repair supplies welding torches etc. So having these things follow your ship all the time would be quite expensive to fuel and the risk of losing them to enemy fire and micrometeorites would be quite high.

I've made this point before on navigation, so I'll copy it here----

>>>In eve online the reason you have a that free cam view(aside from the multitude of backend coding reasons) is justified as a swarm of micro drones surrounding youur ship. This is fine, in a way it's a great design that lets you survey every inch of your hull for defects.
However, what happens when you accelerate? Or enter a fairly dense nebulae? Or are fired upon? In reality the first thing in eve online combat should be to bathe the enemy ships in EMPs and superheated plasma to destroy the drones and reduce visibilty.
There's a reason traditional "wet navy" ships have conning towers, plus it works out better for gameplay reasons to not have any sort of general free cam is once again "It inspires better ship design".
-Unless of course you're a fan of borg cubes in which case.. .. Well fine, be that way.<<<<

Although, you might not need the abillity to "See" everything as badly as you might think, those of you who have been playing KSP for a while might have realised when you're traversing the gulf between kerbin and minmus, having a free cam is about as usefull as tits on a boar hog as far as navigation goes, things like your map screen and whatnot are far more important.

Having a fleet of survey ships for instance, or someone aboardship with intimate knoledge of the sytem would be the best way to handle thing. Map making could be a good job once the game is done.
So in summary even having a free cam would be as pointless as it would be unrealistic, especially if you have a proper sensor suite.

Can You see in infared?

moreirapenna moreirapenna's picture

We can get some ideas from Starmade

Andeerz

Perhaps hving magic third-person cameras could be a toggle-able feature for a server. As for navigation, I really like how KSP does it. The interface is pretty intuitive, and I could imagine such an interface in ScrumbleShip.

And I am surprised that external drones is the explanation for Eve Online's third person view. That is pretty lame in my opinion for the reasons described. It wouldn't be far from doable to have small wide-angle-view cameras on various surfaces of the ship, or internal sensors of some sort/sensors integrated into materials, feeding their inputs into some sort of central processor that then makes a composite representation of your ship and its surroundings that you could see without having to have sensory drones surrounding the vessel. It would be neat to have sensory capabilities from this kind of set up be compromised with damage leading to "dark spots". :3

Oebele

The KSP-style interface would also add to the sense of realism I think :)

betaking12

this is something I'm not sure about, It could work, but perhaps have it be not-so omnipotent/all-seeing, and/or buggable/jammable when sensors are messed with.

The Ensorceler

Perhaps it could be a function of massive nav-beacons comparable in scale to spinal mount railguns? None would exist in a system by default, or just one on the starting station (the one containing the primary warp gate and planetary trade and other essential stuff for a system/server). Additional beacons could be constructed to effectively 'civilize' the system by attracting players who include mining in the list of things they find worthwhile and make piracy harder. Especially interesting would be the addition of equally massive sensor arrays that could be paired with a nav-beacon to make ship locations more public throughout the system. From a counterplay perspective, invaders of a system could bring along dedicated nav-beacon antennae of their own to jam regions of the map or use any non-trivial weapons to outright shut down or destroy existing nav-beacons. Oh, and you'd need considerable power to run any nav-beacons or nav-sensors, so massive fuel tankers or a large fission or fusion reactor add to the economic concerns of such a system.